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Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 10:47

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Zealot The Crazy Vous wrote:

>>> Or just install the TA3.1 patch that fixes the problem and makes TA
>>the
>>> greatest RTS of all.
>>By what standards?
>
> Very, very low ones(that exclude anything but games that include the
> words Total and Annihilation)

Well my personal experience (not scientific of course) shows that without
fail, every single player that I've ever met, - without exception - who has
played both games, will say that TA is a better game. The only ones who
insist that SC is better are people who have never played TA - or at least
TA in multiplayer. SC's single player campaign was clearly superior to
TA's.

--
Marco

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Invité

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 10:52

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Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 10:52

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Sean Keenan wrote:

>> There is a lot of emphasis in TA on resourse management.
>
> If you want resource management (complete with excellent strategies,
> lots of thought, and optional micromanagement), go play Age of Empires.
> Either of em.

Yea, I never tried AOE 2, but I did play the original quite a bit. 4
resourses etc. It seems like too much emphasis on resourse management, I
personally found the game a little boring, but obviously others disagree -
seems there are a lot of people still playing it.

--
Marco

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Da Wrecka

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 11:27

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**Scorched** <scorched@hotmail.com> scribbled:
> Since when could either of those hit a moving target effectively?

Which is why, while your Berthas are being constructed, you've got a Vulcan going
too. They can't hit a moving target effectively either, but they can inundate an area
with so much heavy fire than nothing can survive. Try pitting a Krogoth against a
Vulcan. The Vulcan'll win every time, because it can batter the Krogoth to bits
before it gets within range. Same principle lies behind building an assload of
Berthas. They dump so much fire on the area - a "carpet-bombing" if you will - that
Mr Commander - or Mr Kroggy - takes a pasting before he gets within range to do any
damage.

> Aircraft is the key to stopping the commander attacking your base -
> you can construct an aircraft thing within the first few minutes,
> then build a load of fighters/bombers to kill the commander - even
> these level 1 aircraft can do it easily, especially if you speed up
> the production of these aircraft with your commander...
>
> That's probably the best way to deal with it, I think

You're probably right. But you have the admit - the Berthas and Vulcan are quite fun.
>D

--
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Moen

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 12:45

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On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:30:07 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Strange, then, that it became so popular. It must be because it
> > requires some work to master properly.
>
> Same can be said of almost any game.

Obviously not the games where people prefer to let the game play itself.

> >> So cumbersome and requiring so much micromanagement unneccesarily.
> >
> > Perhaps many like this.
>
> Well maybe they have never played another good RTS which allows more
> options to ease micromanagement - so they don't know what they're
> missing? What reason could there be to only allow 5 marines to be queued
> at once? How does this increase the strategic content of the game? It
> just adds unneccesary micromanagement that is pointless. Another example
> is that constuctors can only accept ONE order at a time. How does this
> make the game more enjoyable?

How does <insert something here> make the game enjoyable? Your comments
are pointless, as long as we cannot agree on what is enjoyable. I don't
find it enjoyable when a game plays itself.

> > Perhaps because it was (and perhaps still is) unique and fresh, and
> > brought something new to the RTS world, such as three vastly different
> > races, and they are even balanced well. Also, the true value is when
> > you always learn something new or find new tricks, and you feel that
> > you are starting to master the game.
>
> Again - the same thing applies to most other games.

Not at all.

> Needless micromanagement doesn't increase this does it?

Why not?

> It just clouds your mind with unneccesary mouseclicks when that time could
> be spent engineering a more brilliant attack.

Ah yes, let the game play itself. Management is for wusses.

> If you were very expert at TA you would be able to understand the type of
> stategic attack and unit control that is possible in a game where you
> don't have to spend 75% of your time queuing up unit producers and
> construction units.

There's a unit limit in SC, so you cannot produce thousands of units. SC
is completely different from TA.

> > Perhaps other games just don't cut it. Perhaps they aren't as
> > satisfying in the long run.
>
> Well, I'm not saying the game is totally horrible. I played it quite a
> lot and enjoyed it. But after playing several other RTS's it was
> difficult to return to SC because of so many limitations in the
> interface that border on absurd. I guess the thing which irritated me
> is that the developers have stated that they designed it this way on
> purpose to help prevent rushing and "massing" large attacks. Seems to
> me like a very "newbie" type attitude - "We don't like rushers, and
> don't know how to defend against rushes, so we will design our interface
> to make the player have to click his mouse 50 extra times to rush."???

There are plenty of rushers in SC. But it takes skill to pull of
properly.

And perhaps you should give up that trolling of yours. Calling SC
players newbies and claiming that Blizzard have a "newbie" attitude only
makes for stupid flamewars.

So quit it with the trolling comments.

Invité

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 12:56

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Moen

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 12:56

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On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:01:36 -0700, "SHONNER" <shonner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Chess is more popular. But it requires thought. Not Tourette's Syndrome.

Don't feed the trolls.

Invité

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 13:16

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Moen

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 13:16

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On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:05:07 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly man, SC games are fairly boring to watch compared to TA games.

I disagree.

> You can feel how the players are struggling to control their tiny little
> groups of 12 units and such.

Not at all.

> Watch a game on a metal map between expert TA players. Inside of 12
> mins, all players will have at least 500 units (depending on the unit
> limit which has been set). Nukes flying, planes whizzing all over the
> place, hundreds of ground forces clashing in the middle of the map, long
> range artillery shells slamming into your base. You wanna talk about
> micromanagement - it's a total frenzy.

Yawn.

> Man *THAT* is war.. starcraft just seems so tame in comparison.

You have obviously never seen a real war, or even a simulated one in
real life.

Zealot The Crazy Vous

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 18:24

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Ok, so I was shredding some zerglings in alt.games.starcraft on Fri,
28 Jun 2002 08:35:40 GMT, when Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com>, started
attacking me out of nowhere. After I got a detector and saw he was a
DT, he said "Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION" and I
said::
>Steven Ung wrote:
>> Too bad I don't have TA. Anyone have one?

>Well I didn't mean that to sound as arrogant as it does. My point was to prove that
>just because I disagree with many aspects of how the SC interface operates doesn't
>mean that I'm a newbie who is unable to handle micro. The micro in TA is just as
>intense as SC, but it's more focused on the war rather than the building aspect. SC
>is just so cumbersome with the building aspect of the game that it MUST neccesarily
>detract from the fighting aspect. For example, if you play SC and I play TA, and we
>are both equally skilled at micro in our respective games - and we are both able to
>issue 30 commands during a given time.. say, one minute. MANY more of my clicks will
>be directed to micromanaging my attacks. Because of the way SC's GUI works, a much
>larger percentage of your clicks will be used on more mundane tasks.
>
>There is a limit to how much micro one person can do. In both games there is always
>more micro to be done than one human can accomplish. It's very difficult for a TA
>player to move to starcraft because most of the things that we take for granted have
>to be micromanged in SC. But they are things that don't NEED to be micromanaged.
>They are things that have little impact on the gameplay other than adding extra
>clicks. That is the issue I have with SC. It's a really cool game, but god damn that
>interface! I feel like it's working AGAINST me rather than helping me accomplish the
>real goal of the game which is to FIGHT.

One thing you seem to constantly ignore is hotkeys. With hotkeys,
instead of clicking thirty times, you click once on each building and
that's it. (unless you count button pushing as clicks, I don't,
because you can be anywhere on the map and puch the right buttons and
bingo) You say you need a lot of clicks to keep up the mundane tasks
in Starcraft, this is true only at the beginning before you have your
buildings etc. hotkeyed and are still building lots of peons to
harvest. To build a building, you click on a peon once, hit 2 hotkey
buttons, and click again to place the building. You can move oh so
much faster when you just have to hit a button rather than move the
cursor to the button to click it.

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Eric Byers

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 18:54

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On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:05:07 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com>
muttered something along the lines of:

>Honestly man, SC games are fairly boring to watch compared to TA games.
>You can feel how the players are struggling to control their tiny little
>groups of 12 units and such.

And how does the ability to select all your units and attack-move them
into the enemy's base help improve gameplay? What's left of the game
when controlling your own units becomes a redundant option?

--
The Oblivious Eric Byers
of the Adjective Army

Bury magnets. Swallow the rapture.

Eric Byers

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 18:56

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On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:16:27 GMT, Moen
<h-news@operamail-dot-com.invalid> muttered something along the lines
of:

>You have obviously never seen a real war, or even a simulated one in
>real life.

*lol*
And you have?

I just knew you'd pull out your minuscule military background in this
discussion (too)...

--
The Oblivious Eric Byers
of the Adjective Army

Bury magnets. Swallow the rapture.

Eric Byers

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 18:59

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On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:53:59 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com>
muttered something along the lines of:

>In TA, you don't pay for the unit until it actually begins to build.
>Then it begins subtracting resourses as it builds. If the unit is 50%
>complete, then you have paid only 50% for it so far. If you cancel a
>unit while in the process of building it, you lose 50% of the resourse
>already used in constructing it.

It sounds fairly hard to keep track of your resources when building
several things at once...

But I guess that's what you get when you have an endless amount of
resources available on every map...and only one resource type...it
sounds awfully lot like mucho-money maps to me...

--
The Oblivious Eric Byers
of the Adjective Army

Bury magnets. Swallow the rapture.

Invité

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 19:03

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Eric Byers

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 28 juin 2002 19:03

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On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:53:05 GMT, Moen
<h-news@operamail-dot-com.invalid> muttered something along the lines
of:

>It's a game. Just like TA. I've seen claims that TA is "very realistic",
>but this is obviously stated by people who have never been involved in
>real-life battles, either on the battle field, or at command posts
>(where orders are issued).

*lol*

Being in the Norwegian army isn't comparable to being in a real war,
you know.

--
The Oblivious Eric Byers
of the Adjective Army

Bury magnets. Swallow the rapture.