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Sean Keenan

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 16:52

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A4DAF91CF0marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.50...
> Moen wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:37:36 +0800, "Steven Ung"
<steven@gtekmy.po.my>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I agree. Anyone who is not good with microing / fast enough, will
> >> find Multiplayer WarCraft III extremely difficult to play.
> >
> > To a certain extent, perhaps. But microing has been made a lot more
> > convenient by using subgroups, tab to move between groups, etc. You
> > also have far fewer units to handle.
> >
> > Overall, I don't think it is more diffcult than SC. It certainly is
> > more convenient!
>
> I must say that StarCraft has the worst interface I have ever seen in
an
> RTS. So cumbersome and requiring so much micromanagement
unneccesarily.

The only thing wrong with StarCraft's interface is the 12 unit limit in
groups. Besides that selection limit, I'd say SC's IF is pretty
streamlined and easy to use. Err, rather, one more thing--> Customizable
keys, or simple default spell keys (Psi storm is spell A--> hit v for
spell A for all units.).

> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units. It's
fairly
> difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC.

If you can't understand the interface, doubtless you cannot comprehend
the greeatness.

Ramen \ Clever Subname\ Junkie

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 18:40

Répondre

"Da Wrecka" <da_wrecka@SPAMBGONEblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ocDS8.9973$Hl2.73101533@news-text.cableinet.net...
> "Ramen "Clever Subname" Junkie" <lameazoid@gamebox.netten> wrote in
message
> news:UXtS8.2956$pJ3.129065242@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Hmm, I remember that too...then he blew up half your base when he got
> > > killed...
> >
> > Yeah. Kind of annoying if he takes out your leader too.
>
> That's why you set up a small shedload of Berthas/Intimidators ASAP, to
blast him out
> of existence before he gets close enough

It still makes the game pointlessly lame. I am playing for a battle not
some idiot getting his only unit killed 5 minutes into the game.

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 18:49

Répondre

Sean Keenan wrote:

> The only thing wrong with StarCraft's interface is the 12 unit limit in
> groups. Besides that selection limit, I'd say SC's IF is pretty
> streamlined and easy to use. Err, rather, one more thing--> Customizable
> keys, or simple default spell keys (Psi storm is spell A--> hit v for
> spell A for all units.).

Well, that and also that you cannot queue unit producing. I find this
rather silly that every 15 seconds I must run around to all my factories
and queue up another 5 marines. Not to mention that constructors can NEVER
accept more than ONE order at a time.

--
Marco

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Sean Keenan

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:01

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A827D868F4marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> Sean Keenan wrote:
>
> > The only thing wrong with StarCraft's interface is the 12 unit limit
in
> > groups. Besides that selection limit, I'd say SC's IF is pretty
> > streamlined and easy to use. Err, rather, one more thing-->
Customizable
> > keys, or simple default spell keys (Psi storm is spell A--> hit v
for
> > spell A for all units.).
>
> Well, that and also that you cannot queue unit producing. I find this
> rather silly that every 15 seconds I must run around to all my
factories
> and queue up another 5 marines. Not to mention that constructors can
NEVER
> accept more than ONE order at a time.

15 seconds? Quit playing turbo if you don't have the micro.
StarCraft is missionred with different graphics.
They are a bit limiting, but hey, fuck you. =)

StormTrooper

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:05

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A4DAF91CF0marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.50...
> Moen wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:37:36 +0800, "Steven Ung" <steven@gtekmy.po.my>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I agree. Anyone who is not good with microing / fast enough, will
> >> find Multiplayer WarCraft III extremely difficult to play.
> >
> > To a certain extent, perhaps. But microing has been made a lot more
> > convenient by using subgroups, tab to move between groups, etc. You
> > also have far fewer units to handle.
> >
> > Overall, I don't think it is more diffcult than SC. It certainly is
> > more convenient!
>
> I must say that StarCraft has the worst interface I have ever seen in an
> RTS. So cumbersome and requiring so much micromanagement unneccesarily.
> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units.

It's called having SKILL

It's fairly
> difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC. Well, huge
> numbers of people think Britney Spears and Madonna are great too - so
> maybe not so hard to understand?
>
> --
> Marco
>
> Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
> may cause your brain to ache.

StormTrooper

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:09

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A827D868F4marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> Sean Keenan wrote:
>
> > The only thing wrong with StarCraft's interface is the 12 unit limit in
> > groups. Besides that selection limit, I'd say SC's IF is pretty
> > streamlined and easy to use. Err, rather, one more thing--> Customizable
> > keys, or simple default spell keys (Psi storm is spell A--> hit v for
> > spell A for all units.).
>
> Well, that and also that you cannot queue unit producing. I find this
> rather silly that every 15 seconds I must run around to all my factories
> and queue up another 5 marines. Not to mention that constructors can
NEVER
> accept more than ONE order at a time.

Maybe the game designers are relying on the fact that the players will be
able to do more than one thing at a time... Once again, this revolves around
one aspect of the skill required to play bw. Its not easy, that's part of
the challenge.

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:30

Répondre

Moen wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:38:11 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I must say that StarCraft has the worst interface I have ever seen in
>> an RTS.
>
> Strange, then, that it became so popular. It must be because it
> requires some work to master properly.

Same can be said of almost any game.

>> So cumbersome and requiring so much micromanagement unneccesarily.
>
> Perhaps many like this.

Well maybe they have never played another good RTS which allows more
options to ease micromanagement - so they don't know what they're
missing? What reason could there be to only allow 5 marines to be queued
at once? How does this increase the strategic content of the game? It
just adds unneccesary micromanagement that is pointless. Another example
is that constuctors can only accept ONE order at a time. How does this
make the game more enjoyable?

>> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
>> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units. It's
>> fairly difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC.
>
> Perhaps because it was (and perhaps still is) unique and fresh, and
> brought something new to the RTS world, such as three vastly different
> races, and they are even balanced well. Also, the true value is when
> you always learn something new or find new tricks, and you feel that
> you are starting to master the game.

Again - the same thing applies to most other games. Needless
micromanagement doesn't increase this does it? It just clouds your mind
with unneccesary mouseclicks when that time could be spent engineering a
more brilliant attack. If you were very expert at TA you would be able
to understand the type of stategic attack and unit control that is
possible in a game where you don't have to spend 75% of your time queuing
up unit producers and construction units.

> Perhaps other games just don't cut it. Perhaps they aren't as
> satisfying in the long run.

Well, I'm not saying the game is totally horrible. I played it quite a
lot and enjoyed it. But after playing several other RTS's it was
difficult to return to SC because of so many limitations in the
interface that border on absurd. I guess the thing which irritated me
is that the developers have stated that they designed it this way on
purpose to help prevent rushing and "massing" large attacks. Seems to
me like a very "newbie" type attitude - "We don't like rushers, and
don't know how to defend against rushes, so we will design our interface
to make the player have to click his mouse 50 extra times to rush."???

Total Annihilation also has several flaws. Just because I love the game
doesn't mean I'm gonna put on rose colored glasses and defend these flaws
mindlessly.

If you love the game, that's great. Everyone has a different view on
what makes this type of game exciting.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:51

Répondre

Sean Keenan wrote:

>> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
>> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units. It's
>> fairly difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC.
>
> If you can't understand the interface, doubtless you cannot comprehend
> the greeatness.

OK, so maybe you can explain to me how I can set a barracks to make 500
marines so I don't have to keep going back to it every 30 seconds? Also
can you explain the line of thinking behind this limitation?

Also, since I can not comprehend the complex interface, maybe you will
explain how I can queue a constructor to make several structures in a row
without having to keep checking back on it to see when it's done, and
THEN telling it to make the next structure?

If you had played other RTS games I think you would understand why a
person could consider this cumbersome and unneccesary? It doesn't add
anything to the game. In fact, IMO it decreases the possibilities in SC
because it tends to make the game overly micromanagement intensive.

Total Annihilation also requires a tremendous amount of micro, but the
strategies that can be executed by a top player are far more complicated
than they are in SC because most needless (boring) micro has been reduced
to a minumum - allowing huge brilliant attacks of several hundred units
at once by air/sea/land simultaneously.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:57

Répondre

StormTrooper wrote:

> Maybe the game designers are relying on the fact that the players will
> be able to do more than one thing at a time... Once again, this
> revolves around one aspect of the skill required to play bw. Its not
> easy, that's part of the challenge.

I'm not new to RTS, and one of the top TA players online. I can assure you
that I am able to handle a lot of micro. It's just the pointlessness of
some of the micro in SC that I'm opposed to.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 19:59

Répondre

StormTrooper wrote:

> It's called having SKILL

Well if you have Total Annihilation installed I'd be happy to give you a
demonstration of skill and show you what is possible in the game.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Sean Keenan

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 20:12

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A895A6E1A0marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> Moen wrote:
> >> So cumbersome and requiring so much micromanagement unneccesarily.

Oh no. Terror we have to click. Let's make a game where you just watch
an AI play for you! Oh, no! It must start running when you boot up your
computer! Clicking the icon is too much micromanagement for the users!

> >> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
> >> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units. It's
> >> fairly difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC.
> >
> > Perhaps because it was (and perhaps still is) unique and fresh, and
> > brought something new to the RTS world, such as three vastly
different
> > races, and they are even balanced well. Also, the true value is when
> > you always learn something new or find new tricks, and you feel that
> > you are starting to master the game.
>
> Again - the same thing applies to most other games. Needless
> micromanagement doesn't increase this does it? It just clouds your
mind
> with unneccesary mouseclicks when that time could be spent engineering
a
> more brilliant attack.

If you need time engineering a more brilliant attack, you aren't gosu at
SC, and never will be. SC is doing, not thinking.

If you were very expert at TA you would be able
> to understand the type of stategic attack and unit control that is
> possible in a game where you don't have to spend 75% of your time
queuing
> up unit producers and construction units.

1MMM2MMM3MMM4MMM5MMM6CCC
Not that hard. Don't be a noub and set it to EHL and they'll register
perfectly fine.

> I guess the thing which irritated me
> is that the developers have stated that they designed it this way on
> purpose to help prevent rushing and "massing" large attacks. Seems to
> me like a very "newbie" type attitude - "We don't like rushers, and
> don't know how to defend against rushes,

StarCraft is very rush oriented. You're thinking the BGH $$$ NR 25
players developed the game. They didn't.

so we will design our interface
> to make the player have to click his mouse 50 extra times to rush."???

7A*click*8A*click*9A*click*0A*click* Well, you have 48 hydras in your
ass now. TYVM.

> Total Annihilation also has several flaws.

Lack of interesting gameplay first and foremost.

> If you love the game, that's great. Everyone has a different view on
> what makes this type of game exciting.

And sadly your views are wrong.

Sean Keenan

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 20:18

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A8CF5A9E7Dmarcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> Sean Keenan wrote:
>
> >> Especially if you are used to Total Annihilation's interface which
> >> makes it very easy to control/queue huge numbers of units. It's
> >> fairly difficut for me to understand why so many people play SC.
> >
> > If you can't understand the interface, doubtless you cannot
comprehend
> > the greeatness.
>
> OK, so maybe you can explain to me how I can set a barracks to make
500
> marines so I don't have to keep going back to it every 30 seconds?
Also
> can you explain the line of thinking behind this limitation?

I thought it was 15 seconds.

So? Developers' shortcoming. It limits lag

> Also, since I can not comprehend the complex interface, maybe you will
> explain how I can queue a constructor to make several structures in a
row
> without having to keep checking back on it to see when it's done, and
> THEN telling it to make the next structure?

Play Protoss, dumbass. Actually PLAY the games before you try to trash
them.
Do you want the drone to pop out after your new hatchery is complete and
then build 8 sunken colonies? Idiot.

> If you had played other RTS games I think you would understand why a
> person could consider this cumbersome and unneccesary? It doesn't add
> anything to the game. In fact, IMO it decreases the possibilities in
SC
> because it tends to make the game overly micromanagement intensive.

Sure, I've played plenty of games with better interfaces. B&W, AoE/AoE2,
a few others. But wow. It makes it a bit easier to play and all, sure.
But SC's interface doesn't really detract from the game that much. Why?
You're clicking like a mad bastard anyways. The whole fucking game is
built around clicking madly and microing your templar to zap the right
units.
This game has the damn zealot dance, for fucks sake. And you complain
about building barracks.

> Total Annihilation also requires a tremendous amount of micro, but the
> strategies that can be executed by a top player are far more
complicated
> than they are in SC because most needless (boring) micro has been
reduced
> to a minumum - allowing huge brilliant attacks of several hundred
units
> at once by air/sea/land simultaneously.

Err, the level of brilliance in "Let's send the Philadelphia Zoo at
them!" is quite low. Especially compared to some of the stuff in some
high level replays.

Sean Keenan

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 20:18

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A8E129B715marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> StormTrooper wrote:
>
> > Maybe the game designers are relying on the fact that the players
will
> > be able to do more than one thing at a time... Once again, this
> > revolves around one aspect of the skill required to play bw. Its not
> > easy, that's part of the challenge.
>
> I'm not new to RTS, and one of the top TA players online.

*gigglehahaha*ahahahaha*gilggel*

Marco

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 21:33

Répondre

Sean Keenan wrote:

> Err, the level of brilliance in "Let's send the Philadelphia Zoo at
> them!" is quite low. Especially compared to some of the stuff in some
> high level replays.

I played SC quite a lot, watched quite a few tourney recordings. Fairly
boring game compared to TA honestly.

At least I have SOME understanding of SC in order to formulate some type of
opinion? Obviously you've never even played TA, yet you are an expert. In
fact I highly doubt you've played *any* quality RTS - you just jumped on
the Blizzard bandwagon like all the other RTS newbs.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Christopher Childs

Re: A gift to you guys from TOTAL ANNIHILATION
Publié: 27 juin 2002 21:48

Répondre

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923A8E129B715marcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.52...
> StormTrooper wrote:
>
> > Maybe the game designers are relying on the fact that the players will
> > be able to do more than one thing at a time... Once again, this
> > revolves around one aspect of the skill required to play bw. Its not
> > easy, that's part of the challenge.
>
> I'm not new to RTS, and one of the top TA players online. I can assure
you
> that I am able to handle a lot of micro. It's just the pointlessness of
> some of the micro in SC that I'm opposed to.

What you're essentially looking for is War3, which many people vehemently
oppose as a newbified Starcraft with the tedious parts of base management
and combat eased.