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Marco

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 04:12

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SHONNER wrote:

> Why doesn't he just play TA with mapping ON and permanent LOS? Chris
> Taylor designed TA so that any kind of player could have fun playing
> it. There's a PAUSE key even. One can strategize up the ying-yang
> while on the PAUSE screen. I need to learn to use the PAUSE key. But
> I forget that it's there when I'm busy getting my guys dead.

Well it seems to me that his ideas usually revolve around multiplayer
gaming. In fact, a couple years ago when he and I were arguing on this
group about this exact same subject - he refused to provide a name which
he plays under online and also refused to play me.

I didn't challenge him to a game to try and humiliate him, but rather to
see just how good he is. I would have a lot more respect for his ideas
if I knew he was an expert player. I think it's fairly silly for a
person who hasn't even really mastered the game to complain about it.

I'm so sick of seeing this online:

newbie makes game
newbie makes rules to suit his play style
no air, no Big Bertha, No nukes, 30 mins build time

To me, this is not TA... this is someone who doesn't know how to play the
game trying to MAKE rules that make it more likely he can win. Lshaping
does the same thing. I suspect he is not good at micromanagement, so he
has devised a system whereby micromanagement is minimized.

I prefer to just play the game as it is. Send all the flash you want,
make 20 berthas if you think you can, I could care less. If you let a
guy make a nuke in the back of his base and you never send peepers to
check out what he's doing - you deserve to be nuked to death. Same goes
for Lshapings ideas - if you suck at micromanagement, work on improving
it, that is what is called *skill*. I lose quite often to better
players, but I simply try to improve in the next game, I don't make rules
or write a MOD that makes up for my lack of skill.

--
Marco (Wrath-Mutilator)

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

full name

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 05:26

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Well, my clock just took another twist. Now it goes by individual
orders, not a plan, so there is no need for an overlay of all plans
like Total Annihilation has or for entering the set of plans. The
timing happens without any changes to the game play. The
mouseslingers need not get bent out of shape, if my timing method is
accepted, it will be optional. Bye.

. This method applies to any real time strategy game which allows
queuing.
. Game speed is not variable.
. There is one timer for both players.
. The number of times a player issues/changes orders to a unit or
group is counted but not the length of those orders.
. There is a maximum number of orders allowed in X amount of time
(like an hour). That ratio, hour/X, is what determines the strategy
content of the game, hopefully. Alternatively, there is a fixed time
game with the winner being the one who issues orders the fewest number
of times unless he (or she) dies first. Alternatively, there is an
open ended game in which all can issue orders X number of times with
no time limit.

--
Real Timed Strategy Gaming
http://pages.prodigy.net/logicshaping
mbender@satx.rr.com

"A computer in every home - mine, all mine!"

Invité

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 10:50

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Daniel Blakemore

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 10:50

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> Please. No more links.
> Why didn't he post his original message in Starcraft's newsgroup instead
of
> this one? Oh, God, why!?

Because he's the kind of person you woudn't even wish upon your worst enemy?

They'd probably think we'd sent him on purpose as some kind of troll
bomb...

--
Daniel Blakemore
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself" - Tom Paine

Invité

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 15:24

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Marco

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 15:24

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SHONNER wrote:

> I had 60 marines that I wanted to move to another part of the map.
> Just to move them, I had to drag a box around them 5 times because
> only 12 marines could be given move orders at a time. Expect more
> mouse-clicking if a battle were to start.

I know. That to me is utterly retarded. PLUS you can only queue 5 marines
at a time to be made in the barracks. Not to mention that a construction
unit can only be given ONE order at a time. I can't even enjoy the game
like that... So busy scrolling all over the map trying to queue up the
stupid construction thingy's and such.

--
Marco

Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
may cause your brain to ache.

Invité

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 21:37

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CaptainJ

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 21:37

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"SHONNER" <shonner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d13d871_2@news.vic.com...
> But I'm much more interested in telling my LLT exactly which enemy units
to
> shoot at before my Commander finishes building it. Yes... I play TA on
> the -10 speed setting.

Yep, I like to micromanage battles as well. I may enjoy scripting the
opening, but after that, limiting the changes in plan would ruin the game -
it would be like watching a movie.
Ever play Stratego? You spend a bunch of time setting your pieces and then
during the game, you change your strategey as you go. If you had to commit
your moves before hand, the game would be boring.
But I really like giving orders to a unit or factory that isn't finished
yet, cause I useually build each one for a specific purpose.
CJ

>
> SHONNER
> http://www.shonner.com
>
> "full name" <email@address.com> wrote in message
> news:u7g6husb06irrvius6iknen5jsc4abe2fi@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:53:00 GMT, "CaptainJ"
> > <jeffseacrest@spamjam.attbi.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Why don't you just mod TA to do what you are explaining here and submit
> it
> > >for play? The proof of your idea would be in the response.
> > >TA is fairly easy to mod, so go for it.
> > >Some of your ideas sound good, but I think you want to take them too
far.
> > >I like the idea of cuing orders for factories and units before they are
> > >finished,
> >
> > Thanks.
>
>

CaptainJ

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 22 juin 2002 21:45

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Yes, but what FN is writing about would be major enough that people would
give it a try and respond with feedback. He(?) is presenting ideas that he
feels strongly about, and that he thinks will improve the game, but the
proof would be in the demonstration; people will respond to that.
Most mods are played on the LAN scale because it is so much easier to
manage. World wide, there are too many compatibility issues.
I'm not suggesting the mod will take over GS, or Zone. I'm just saying "Put
some effort into your ideas, and we'll give them a try."
CJ

"Marco" <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923482766333Bmarcosboxhotmailcom@205.237.233.50...
> CaptainJ wrote:
>
> > Why don't you just mod TA to do what you are explaining here and
> > submit it for play? The proof of your idea would be in the response.
> > TA is fairly easy to mod, so go for it.
> > Some of your ideas sound good, but I think you want to take them too
> > far. I like the idea of cuing orders for factories and units before
> > they are finished, and maybe even scripting an opening plan (but that
> > would have to be limited in # of commands). But to run the entire game
> > that way would be boring - too much watching and not enough playing.
> > Just do the mod, I'll try it.
>
> Well 3rd party mods and units don't get much response these days. On any
> given day there are about 100 people playing TA online - all services
> combined (zone, gsa, PW, GBL). The only mods you *ever* really see played
> are TAUIP and UberHack. Well TAUIP not even really a mod, just a huge
> jumble of units with little regard to balance.
>
> --
> Marco
>
> Cognitive dissonance due to reality conflicting with this post
> may cause your brain to ache.

Invité

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 06:31

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CaptainJ

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 06:31

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Yea, I saw your tongue in your cheek there, (especially with that -10 thing)
but I do make very specific units for very specific responses to the game
environment, and like to target opponents units one at a time with
battalions, it is way more effective.
TA allows me to do that, cause I can cue my other units behavior so well.
CJ
PS Do you really make "pretty" bases?

"SHONNER" <shonner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d1526a0_1@news.vic.com...
> I was joking. Actually, I like TA because you can set stuff up the way
you
> want it to behave. Unless you're playing against someone that just wants
to
> nuke you in 12 minutes playing the 10K/10K setting. Then you may not have
> the time to make your base all pretty.
>
>
> SHONNER
> http://www.shonner.com
>
> "CaptainJ" <jeffseacrest@spamjam.attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:jm4R8.290590$cQ3.14786@sccrnsc01...
> >
> > "SHONNER" <shonner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3d13d871_2@news.vic.com...
> > > But I'm much more interested in telling my LLT exactly which enemy
units
> > to
> > > shoot at before my Commander finishes building it. Yes... I play TA
on
> > > the -10 speed setting.
> >
> > Yep, I like to micromanage battles as well. I may enjoy scripting the
> > opening, but after that, limiting the changes in plan would ruin the
> game -
> > it would be like watching a movie.
> > Ever play Stratego? You spend a bunch of time setting your pieces and
then
> > during the game, you change your strategey as you go. If you had to
commit
> > your moves before hand, the game would be boring.
> > But I really like giving orders to a unit or factory that isn't finished
> > yet, cause I useually build each one for a specific purpose.
> > CJ
> >
> > >
> > > SHONNER
> > > http://www.shonner.com
> > >
> > > "full name" <email@address.com> wrote in message
> > > news:u7g6husb06irrvius6iknen5jsc4abe2fi@4ax.com...
> > > > On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:53:00 GMT, "CaptainJ"
> > > > <jeffseacrest@spamjam.attbi.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Why don't you just mod TA to do what you are explaining here and
> submit
> > > it
> > > > >for play? The proof of your idea would be in the response.
> > > > >TA is fairly easy to mod, so go for it.
> > > > >Some of your ideas sound good, but I think you want to take them
too
> > far.
> > > > >I like the idea of cuing orders for factories and units before they
> are
> > > > >finished,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

paranormalized

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 10:31

Répondre

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:24:03 GMT, Marco <marcosbox@hotmail.com> wrote:

>SHONNER wrote:
>
>> I had 60 marines that I wanted to move to another part of the map.
>> Just to move them, I had to drag a box around them 5 times because
>> only 12 marines could be given move orders at a time. Expect more
>> mouse-clicking if a battle were to start.
>
>I know. That to me is utterly retarded. PLUS you can only queue 5 marines
>at a time to be made in the barracks. Not to mention that a construction
>unit can only be given ONE order at a time. I can't even enjoy the game
>like that... So busy scrolling all over the map trying to queue up the
>stupid construction thingy's and such.

OTOH, you have to admire Blizzard for building such a fortune off of
whack-a-drone.

Jonathan Fisher
to be honest, though, Battle.net's ease of use for casual match-making
is probably more responsible...
----------
paranormalized man, subnormalized otaku

ROT13 and then delete all instances of the letter after P to email
Yeah, I've been getting my alphabet mixed up the past couple months.
Sorry.

paranormalized

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 11:20

Répondre

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:27:48 GMT, full name <email@address.com> wrote:

*snip snip*
>It might have a negative effect, but once refined it might be very
>positive. Nothing in it suggests otherwise to me. I agree that
>programming the thing is best, but I cannot do that sort of
>programming. I will be playing it out plenty in my head, especially

Bad idea. Stuff that sounds stupid on paper can become incredible on
silicon, and vice-versa.

Action game where you try *avoiding* shooting everything? (Metal Gear)
"Design is King!" (Daikatana)

Of course, it's harder to remember the cool ideas that sucked than the
revolutionary ones, so we all think it's easy to be a revolutionary.
But good ideas are a dime a dozen, anywhere, and success comes from
trying good ideas out and discovering first hand which ones to discard
immediately.

Also, as someone who's spent the past few years navel-gazing, 'work in
out in my head,' has the kiss of death. There's nobody in your head
to point out your self-deceptions, since there's nobody there but the
guy feeding you lies. You're stuck without anyone to hand you a
controller and show you where you're going wrong or something
serendipitously nifty. No objectivity, since there's nothing material
in the project.

Finally, programming help and expertise isn't as available as you
think it is. Calling people assholes when you're begging for help is
very silly, and extremely counter-productive. You'd have better luck
convincing people that X is the next big thing if you practiced
charisma.

Charm or results. If you don't have one, produce the other.

Jonathan Fisher
----------
paranormalized man, subnormalized otaku

ROT13 and then delete all instances of the letter after P to email
Yeah, I've been getting my alphabet mixed up the past couple months.
Sorry.

full name

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 13:34

Répondre

paranormalized <cnendabeznyvmrdq@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:27:48 GMT, full name <email@address.com> wrote:
>
>*snip snip*
>>It might have a negative effect, but once refined it might be very
>>positive. Nothing in it suggests otherwise to me. I agree that
>>programming the thing is best, but I cannot do that sort of
>>programming. I will be playing it out plenty in my head, especially
>
>Bad idea. Stuff that sounds stupid on paper can become incredible on
>silicon, and vice-versa.

I have invented, designed, and built electronic devices. One of them
published, and used in demonstrations all over the world. My
experience suggests that a well refined design (well refined for
someone who is not a degreed engineer) usually does fine when built
correctly. But what does silicon have to do with the subject or this
group?
>
>Action game where you try *avoiding* shooting everything? (Metal Gear)
>"Design is King!" (Daikatana)

That appears to be the only comment in your whole post you have about
my design. Do you actually understand it? My most recent design will
make queuing up one or two dozen orders for a construction bot very
worthwhile. And it would change nothing in Total Annihilation,
operation wise. How would that be avoiding shooting anything? The
only thing it does is encourage queuing and therefore strategizing.
>
>Of course, it's harder to remember the cool ideas that sucked than the
>revolutionary ones, so we all think it's easy to be a revolutionary.
>But good ideas are a dime a dozen,

Especially while you are doing drugs.

>anywhere, and success comes from trying good ideas out and discovering
>first hand which ones to discard immediately.

I have implemented many of my own devices and I am pleased as punch so
far with the acceptance some of my various ideas have had in the
world.
>
>Also, as someone who's spent the past few years navel-gazing, 'work in
>out in my head,' has the kiss of death.

Then do something.

>There's nobody in your head
>to point out your self-deceptions, since there's nobody there but the
>guy feeding you lies. You're stuck without anyone to hand you a
>controller and show you where you're going wrong or something
>serendipitously nifty. No objectivity, since there's nothing material
>in the project.

I have found a wealth of information and feedback on UseNet. My
recent programming task would have taken many times as long to
complete without the technical help I have found on the Internet. And
it runs great. I use it everyday, all day long.
>
>Finally, programming help and expertise isn't as available as you
>think it is.

Maybe you need another translation of what I have said before you
pretend to know what I think.

> you're begging for help is very silly, and extremely counter-productive.

I never begged anyone for help and this is not a design group. You
seem to be role playing.

>You'd have better luck convincing people that X is the next big thing
>if you practiced charisma.

In most cases, people do whatever they want to do. Is this a
philosophy class? Charm school?

>Charm or results. If you don't have one, produce the other.
>Jonathan Fisher

I do not have the results problem. Maybe you do not have enough of
the charm you are preaching about?

--
Real Timed Strategy Gaming
http://pages.prodigy.net/logicshaping
mbender@satx.rr.com

"A computer in every home - mine, all mine!"

Daniel Blakemore

Re: Total Annihilation II: Real Timed Strategy?
Publié: 23 juin 2002 20:45

Répondre

<snip>

Hmm...I'm beginning to think this guy has a *severe* case of Cranium
Rectumitis...not to mention suffering from Narcissistic personality
disorder.

--
Daniel Blakemore
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself" - Tom Paine